(Taken from an online debate with an idiot, his comments are in italics.)
But isnt it more to do with the fact that women are not as strong as men??? SO they may need assistance in some situations. Its not sexist, just reality.
There is a difference between lifting a 40lb box for a woman and opening a door for a woman. But in truth, if I need help, I will ask for it. It’s rude to assume I need it and push me out of the way, and it tends to get me a wee bit riled up.
And chivalry isn’t just for the boys.
I get my arse out of the seat for pregnant females, elderly folks, parents carrying children, those with disabilities, and those with exhausted written all over their faces.
And as mentioned, it is about control. Those abusing chivalry either are using it to control women, or take advantage of men. Neither are what chivalry is about.
There is a fine line between chivalry and chauvinism. If I’m taking on a job, then it’s because I know I can do it. If you come up to me and assume I cannot do it, you are being chauvinistic. If you come up to me and offer to do it simply to be polite, then you are being chivalrous. It’s all about the intent.
Maybe chivalry is less about the man’s intent and more about the woman’s perception. I mean, if I hold a door open for a woman I’ve never met before going into a store, how can she tell what my intent is? I don’t know if anyone’s touched on this yet but i think it’s more about the man’s looks. Now I bet that not many women on this board will admit to this, but i believe that a man holding the door for a woman that looks like Brad Pitt will automatically be considered chivalrous. or at least much more likely. Quasimoto in the monkey wrench jumpsuit is going to be chauvanistic.
Isn’t that sort of true, ladies?
Nope. Actually, in my experience, it’s kind of the other way around. It is about a man’s ‘looks’, but more along the lines of how the man looks at the woman when he does it. The patronizing smile is generally a dead give away.
Most guys who open doors though, are just being nice. It’s other ‘chivalrous’ things that tend to annoy me, like when I’m carrying something and a man just walks up and takes it from me.
And it’s the flip side too. A woman who is perfectly willing to open the door herself and will give the guy opening the door a smile and a thank you probably deserves to have a door opened for her. The woman who expects it, well, she doesn’t.
“And if a guy who offers to do something nice like give you a seat on the bus does want to get under your sweater â€“ BIG DEAL! He’s a guy! We’ve all heard of sex, right? Well, it’s kind of the driving force of the human race. If he takes it a step further and starts to be inappropriate, just tell him you’e not interested. And I can’t see that he’s going to be pulling out any big moves in a crowded bus. Let’s be realistic. I’m so sick to death of women who think they”re above the attentions of some men.
I get dressed every morning. If I’m wearing skimpy shorts, the statement I’m making is ‘it’s hot outside’. If I’m wearing a halter top, the statement I’m making is ‘it’s hot outside’. If I’m wearing a bikini, the statement I’m making is ‘I want to go swimming and get a tan’. If I was friggin walkin around naked, the statement I’d be making is ‘by all the unholy wretches of hell WHY do I live in a place that gets to be 120 degrees in the summer’.
I’m so sick to death of women who think they’re above the attentions of some men.
I’m so sick to death of men who think that because I have breasts I am an object and I must tolerate their attentions.
I am friggin above the attentions of some men. I am a living, breathing, thinking human being, and if all you want is a female to ogle go buy yourself a blow-up doll. Some men should stick to playing with themselves and not rudely force their lewd attentions upon those of the feminine gender.
I know of quite a few instances where sexual harassment suits have been filed the other way ’round
And gasp, so do I. However, that doesn’t change the fact that most sexual harassment is man on woman. Just as most rape is man on woman. Just as most spousal abuse is man on woman. Sorry luv, but those are the numbers. I didn’t make them, I just report them. DS used to like to talk about the ‘good old boys’ club still existing in the upper levels of most big business.
Please don’t call me “luv.” I’m not your “luv.” Do you think just because you’re a woman and I’m a man you have the rite to give me pet names?
Ah. You’ve gotten a point. Congratulations. Plenty of boys feel they have the right to call me hun, and babe, and sweetie. It’s insulting and degrading, isn’t it? But then, I’m just some feminazi b**** who should be grateful for the attentions of a man, aren’t I? After all, it’s the natural order of things, isn’t it? When someone says ‘here, have a seat hun’, that’s okay, right? But when someone treats you in such a manner, it’s bad, right?
your words “be realistic. I’m so sick to death of women who think they’re above the attentions of some men’. The attentions they are above are the patronizing attentions of creeps. And if you don’t have enough sense to take care of your hygiene problems, why do you believe the fact we have breasts means we have to deal with that? I have no problem shooting down a guy who comes up to me, all sweaty and smelly for pretty much the same reasons I have no problem shooting a guy down for marinating in cologne. Why should I have to put up with someone who has so little regard for other human beings they can’t even spend the 10 minutes a day it would take to shower and put on deoderant?
Yes, we are above the attentions of some men. Just as you would be above the attentions of a woman who came up to you with week old layers of makeup, greasy hair, and smelly clothes. Tell me Leaf, how do you treat a woman you find less than attractive? Do you regularly go up to ‘ugly’ girls in bars and buy them drinks? Why the double standard?
The ‘some men’ that we are above the attentions of are the patronizing idiots, the foul hygiene rejects, etc…
If it bothers you that I don’t want a patronizing fool or a guy who hasn’t had a shower in a week fawning over me, well, that’s entirely your problem.
But I am above the attentions of ‘some men’ by the sheer virtue of the fact that I am a human being, and I shouldn’t have to put up with stares, patronizing behavior, fawning, leering, etc… just because I happen to have been born without a Y chromosome, and it is downright rude of you to expect me too just because I was born with breasts.
you must have been blessed with a very privelidged upbringing. be careful it doesn’t make you stuck up. Believe it or not, there are people in this world who have problems with body odour. they put on BO killer and three hours later, they smell again. Are they supposed to walk down the street constantly spraying themselves? I would wager that people should not be so superficial that they would shun someone for that reason. Are you so superficial?
Why yes, there are people out there who smell. However, those people can generally do something about said smell. In fact, all can. So, why should I worry about the ones who are to lazy too?
The argument that a man is being rude by looking at what is on display doesn’t work. Ok, so you didn’t mean it to be on display, did not mean your attire to be provocative, and yet some men will find it so. Some men will find a turtle neck seductive simply because it is tight. Same with long pants. Perhaps the wearer was simply cold or too lazy to shave her legs and has put on a few pounds. But somewhere out there is a guy who will see her in her snug pants and think “hey, nice ass” and maybe stare. That is just how it is and it is not reasonable to expect otherwise.
It’s not reasonable to expect to be treated politely? I know I can’t prevent all guys from gawking, some people are jerks. However, seeing the jerky behavior justified is what contributes to the problem. I do expect to be treated like a human being and if you don’t treat me politely you’d better expect me to treat you like scum.
And that’s why when certain types of men open the door for me, they get glared at. And that’s why when certain types of men try to talk to me, they get ignored or told to bugger off. Because I am above their attentions and I shouldn’t have to put up with it on the excuse of ‘boys will be boys’.
Golden rule. If you don’t want me to treat you like you are a loser, don’t act like one.
And if you are offended because I won’t talk to you if you can’t be bothered to shower, well, take a friggin shower. If I can smell you from ten feet away, I’m not going to talk with you. I respect my sensory glands more than that.
This is simply a statement that confirms my suspicion that you are superficial.
Is it to much to ask for someone to have taken a shower in the past two days? Is it to much to ask for someone to have brushed their teeth that morning? To have washed their clothes recently? Is that a lot to ask? We are talking a few minutes of effort. But I’m the bad guy because I expect someone to put forth those few minutes of effort before going out in public.
I guess I’m willing to be the bad guy on that.
I also don’t let muddy people sit on my furniture. Is that also mean of me? I expect people to wipe their feet and not track dog crap all over my floor. Egad, how cruel I am. Why, I won’t even let people smoke in my car. How superficial of me.
I’m not asking a man to be Adonis. If you’d ever met some of the men I’ve dated in the past, you’d be ashamed of yourself for suggesting such. But I do expect a man to have enough pride in himself and respect for his fellow human beings to take a shower once in a while.
I’ve watched women get angry at my male friends for opening the door or acting ‘chivalrous’. They come back and play the wounded heart and I just want to laugh. Why? Because I was present and saw exactly what happened. They opened the door, gave a patronizing smile, took in the woman’s breasts, called her hun, stepped over the ‘ugly’ woman to open the door for the ‘pretty’ one, insisted one of their number ‘bite the bullet’ and distract the ‘ugly’ female friend to clear the way for the ‘pretty’ one, or bought flowers and thought that obligated a woman to get naked, and can’t understand why she was offended by that attitude cause after all, girls like flowers.
And they are honestly surprised that women get offended by that. When I point it out to them, they have no idea what I’m talking about, and insist the women were just ‘stuck up’.
And these are guys with enough redeeming qualities that I call them my friends. There are guys FAR worse.
if you don’t want to be ogled, you need to dress in such a way that no one would consider you on display.
1) All human beings should be treated with same respect they treat others with
2) A woman’s body does not exist for the visual pleasure of men
3) Nobody has the right to stare at other beings or cross personal boundaries
4) There is a difference between chauvanism and chivalry
5) Women are indeed above the attentions of men who can’t be bothered basic hygiene or basic etiquette.
1) All human beings should be treated with same respect they treat others with.
So does that mean that a guy who perves should also be perved at? 😆
2) A woman’s body does not exist for the visual pleasure of men.
Well, the bodies of males and females are designed for mobility, energy conservation, consumption, using and developing tools, fighting, attracting a mate and procreating. If we don’t procreate then our species dies out. There must be something in the way a man is attracted to a woman and vice versa that can be respected, regardless of how cheap and tawdry some people consider it to be.
I am not ashamed to be attracted to women. It is an instinct that I cannot ignore. I do have and exercise self control in not drooling or propositioning every woman I see. I have the ability to and have formed and maintained a monogamous relationship. The species has come a long way from the days of the caveman. But as far as we have come, we are still animals who possess some animal urges and instincts. Denying that those instincts are natural and demanding they be addressed as something scandelous or sexist is like jumping up and down on the beach to swim across the ocean. You’ll expend a lot of energy, but in the end you will have made no progress.
3) Nobody has the right to stare at other beings or cross personal boundaries.
I don’t know about you, but I look at whatever I want.
4) There is a difference between chauvanism and chivalry.
Yes, these two words even have different definitions in the dictionary – who would have thunk it? I’m so glad we have you here to notify us of words that don’t mean the same thing. That kind of contribution to the debate is truly inspiring.
5) Women are indeed above the attentions of men who can’t be bothered basic hygiene or basic ettiquette.
So basically anyone who can come up with a good enough reason can think they are above the attention of anyone else. I wonder what constitutes a good enough reason, though? It would be different for everyone. You can’t really generalise, because while you may consider an odour reason enough to be rude to someone, others would disagree. Thus, others may think being rude to someone because they smell is rude. So essentially, this comment can’t be stated as fact, because there will be women in the world who will consider it to be wrong. So by that rationale, it is simply your opinion, is it not?
Why don’t I steal? Because I’m better than that. I could, if I wanted to, I’ve had the opportunities on many occasions. I’m smart and fast, I could be one heck of a shoplifter, and I know the ins of the system fairly well, I could be one heck of a scam artist. But I’m better than that. I respect myself more than that.
Why do I return lost items? Because I’m better than that. Sure, I could justify keeping the several hundred dollar camera I found, but you know, I’m better than that. I could have justified keeping the wallet full of money I found, but you know, I’m better than that. I respect myself more than that.
Why don’t I cheat on my boyfriend? Many of my family members cheat, but I don’t, because you know, I’m better than that. I respect myself more than that.
It’s not necessarily the person I’m better than. It’s the actions I’m better than. I’ve worked with some homeless before too, and there are a couple who always knew they could get a buck from me. Why? Because they were legitimate homeless. The folks who just can’t be bothered to get a job and make more money begging than I do working, well, you know, I could do that too, but I’m better than that.
So when people undertake the kinds of actions that I know I’m better than, well, you know, I’m better than hanging out with them as well. If that makes me somehow a bad person, I think I’ll accept that. I’d rather accept that than allow these people into my life. I like to limit the times per year I’m robbed, screamed at, have to clean up someone’s vomit, have to shower just because I stood near someone, dealt with a stalker for the better part of a year because I tried to be nice despite my better judgement, etc… Been there, done that, and you know what? I’m better than that, so I’m not doing it anymore.
You want to spend time with me? Take a shower once in a while. Don’t knock on my door slurring drunk. Don’t shoplift while we are at the mall together. Don’t invite me out to a bar to pick up guys when you know I’m in a committed relationship. Don’t marinate in aftershave and enter my personal space. Get your eyeballs out of my breasts when you are talking to me. Don’t brag about how you are scamming welfare/ the 3 guys paying child support for your 1 child. Don’t refer to women as inferior beings. Don’t touch me without permission. Don’t act like a stalker.
Why? Because I’m a human being and I deserve to be treated better than that, as do the other human beings you deal with daily.
If you can’t be bothered to shower, all the door opening in the world doesn’t make you ‘chivalrous’ by modern standards. If you stare at a woman, all the chair pulling out in the world doesn’t make you ‘chivalrous’ by modern standards. If you consider a woman your inferior, all the tipping of hats in the world won’t make you ‘chivalrous’ by modern standards.
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