A place for Lee to Mansplain

Here is a thread, Lee.  Feel free to continue your mansplaining here.

Original Thread, where Crommunist also destroys you, is here, in case you forget.

Lee,

Hi, me again. Still female. And I know you’ve already admitted that makes what I have to say irrelevant to you, but I will go ahead and try one more time. If nothing else, your dismissal of what I have to say will demonstrate your true colors to observers.

I get harassed. Pretty much everywhere I go. At some places, it’s worse than others. Computer stores. Sports bars. Conventions.

And you know what that ends up tending to mean? It means the effort to attend regarding transportation, childcare, etc… just isn’t worth it to me. Why would I bother trying to overcome those obstacles when I’m just going to get talked over, ignored, harassed, dismissed, belittled, and objectified? I can get all that just by signing on to voice chat in any video game. So why should I bother? Frankly, I’ve got better things to do, and I can get the same bullshit at much classier joints.

So if you ask me why I don’t go, the answer is going to be because frankly, it’s not worth the time and energy it takes to get there. We’ve explained the rest countless times. You and your ilk just refuse to hear it, and ya know, explaining the obvious to you for the fiftieth time often isn’t worth the time and effort either.

In short, we stay home, because the likes of you and your hero Shermer have made it clear we aren’t welcome. So why should I bother to pay a babysitter to attend your convention?

And you know what, why should I speak up, knowing what it costs me just to attend? I get harassed just for being female in public. I get rape threats just for being female and in a ‘male space’. Have you seen what women get when they actually DARE say something? I got harassing emails just because of the response I made on the previous thread. You and your ilk have made it clear you don’t actually listen when to women when they say anything, so why should I choose to deal with the costs of speaking up? It’s not worth it to me.

So I don’t go to conventions. To much trouble. And I don’t speak up. To much trouble. I’ve got better things to do.

Do you get the picture yet?

oy vey iz mir, where do begin!

I think I’ll launch into this with a brief response to WithinThisMind, a sort of dual response to the near copy-paste rant from both threads.

Ms. Mind, you are making two fairly blatant mistakes when it comes to having a discussion. The first, is expecting that someone will respect you, when you begin your comment with a personal attack. Nowhere did I say women’s opinions don’t matter. On the contrary, I’m arguing from a position that women’s opinions are what we should be listening to.

The second mistake you make is in purporting to speak for all women. So when I view your account skeptically, it’s not because you’re a woman, it’s because you’re account doesn’t match up with what most (according to the survey) women’s opinions are. If 98% of women who take a survey don’t share your experience, it’s more likely than not your experience is an inaccurate picture of reality (see Hume).

This is a wholly familiar position for skeptics on every topic, it’s well supported in logical terms, and as a skeptic yourself this information should give you pause. Maybe you’re really being incessently harassed, door to door, and maybe joe christian really did see Jesus in the tunnel of light, but I’m under no rational obligation to accept either claim by virtue of mere testimony.

Sorry :/

[quote]On the contrary, I’m arguing from a position that women’s opinions are what we should be listening to[/quote]

Except, as I pointed out, this is exactly what you AREN’T doing. You aren’t listening to women. I didn’t make a personal attack, I pointed out the cold, hard, unpleasant truth – what women are actually saying is irrelevant to you.

[quote]The second mistake you make is in purporting to speak for all women. So when I view your account skeptically, it’s not because you’re a woman, it’s because you’re account doesn’t match up with what most (according to the survey) women’s opinions are. If 98% of women who take a survey don’t share your experience, it’s more likely than not your experience is an inaccurate picture of reality[/quote]

Except that my account DOES match up with what the women said in the survey, which you would have noted, if you had actually read my account. And it is what many, many, many other women are saying, you just aren’t listening to or seeing the whole picture with them either.

The reason I don’t go is because it’s too much trouble to get a baby sitter, and too expensive, and I have better things to do. You stopped reading the survey at that point. You never once asked the follow up question, the way someone who was actually interested in learning would. You never asked why it’s too much trouble.

I answered the question you didn’t ask.

The reason it’s too much trouble, too expensive, and I have better things to do is that I’ll get talked over, ignored, harassed, dismissed, belittled, and objectified.

But the reason you didn’t ask is because you didn’t care. Because I’m a woman.

You still don’t get the picture.

Lee,

Read.

http://www.everydaysexism.com/

Learn.

Sorry, the survey is in the last thread (nice spot).

http://www.secularcensus.us/analysis/2012/07-31

Now give the substance a go

So let’s look at this survey, and see if the answers would actually demonstrate my ‘experience’ to be wrong.

Here is a question –

Have you ever felt unwelcome, discriminated against, or harmed in the secular movement?

How would I answer that? Hmm… Well, let’s see, I get harassed everywhere. I’m female. I get groped on the bus. I get hit on by someone who won’t take no for an answer in line at the grocery store. I get mansplained to constantly. This is my normal.

So how would I answer? Well, do I feel more unwelcome, discriminated against, or harmed in the secular movement more than I feel unwelcome, discriminated against, or harmed when simply existing as female at say, oh, let’s go with Disneyland.

No, not really.

Does that mean I feel welcome, like an equal, and safe at a secular conference? No.

I should be safe from sexism at a secular conference. But I’m not, and sadly, that is normal. Normal enough that I probably wouldn’t feel the need to call it out specifically. I’m used to men staring at my breasts, invading my personal space, assuming they are entitled to my attention, condescending to me, and hitting on me regardless of how I feel about it. Unless it is particularly egregious, I’m not going to say anything. For starters, I already know nobody will listen.

And is that acceptable? Hell no. And that’s the point we are trying to explain to you.

So how would I answer this question? Probably with a no. Phrase it a tad differently, and you would have gotten a resounding yes.

Next issue –

“For both of these subsets, insufficient time is cited most often as the main obstacle to participation.”

Go back to my original post. I have limited amounts of time to spend. Why would I choose to spend what little time I have going to an event where I will be talked over, ignored, harassed, dismissed, belittled, and objectified? Ain’t nobody got time for that shit.

Next issue –

” lack of childcare was the one factor to emerge as a disproportionately women’s concern. Just 39.1% of all registrants submitting this Census form were women; yet women represented more than 61.1% of the “lack of childcare” responses. No other selection showed a gender imbalance this marked. ”

If you don’t see how gender roles play into the above, then you have your head stuck firmly up your ass. If my husband goes to an overnight activity, nobody ever asks him ‘well who will take care of the kid?’. It’s assumed I will. But if I go to an overnight activity, one of the first questions I’m asked is ‘who is taking care of your kid’, as though it is absurd that he stayed home with his dad. And don’t even get me started on referring to me taking care of him as ‘parenting’ but his dad taking care of him as ‘baby-sitting’.

Next issue –

“Women are more selective about revealing their nontheism to others.”

And why the fuck do you think that is? Seriously? My husband says he is an atheist, and it gets a shrug. I say I’m an atheist, and I get followed around the room by folks trying to save my soul and arguing that my reasons for being an atheist can’t possibly be valid, or rational, or logical, and I obviously haven’t heard the good word and don’t I have a responsibility to my son to be religious and blah de fucking blah. Because I’m a woman, they feel far more entitled to question my convictions. And you wouldn’t believe how many folks respond to my saying I’m an atheist with ‘how does your husband feel about that?’ So I shut up. It’s easier.

And there you have it. In a nutshell. You want to know why women don’t speak up more?

Because when they do, they are abused for it. They are threatened, shouted down, harassed, objectified, and dismissed. So they shut up. It’s easier.

 

Have you ever felt unwelcome, discriminated against, or harmed in the secular movement?

Not more so than usual. You would answer yes to that.

Does that mean I feel welcome, like an equal, and safe at a secular conference? No.

See above. You would fall into the 2%.

Both overall and among women, Census registrants say that the secular movement’s most effective work has been facilitating friendships and a sense of community.

*shrug*

Not more so than usual. You would answer yes to that.

1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted. That is the ‘usual’. I get harassed every time I go to a bar without a male escort, and at least a third of the time when I am with a male escort. That is the usual. I was sexually assaulted and told I must have been ‘asking for it’. That is the usual. Greta, Rebecca, etc… all regularly receive hate mail and death threats and that is the usual.

So, to you, the usual level of harassment I receive is acceptable, and the secular community should not try to improve at all?

And I should pay thousands of dollars, find childcare, etc… all to get more of the same?

That’s what you aren’t getting, Lee. That is what you are deliberately blinding yourself too. The ‘usual level’ isn’t acceptable. Women shouldn’t have to put up with the ‘usual level’. The ‘usual level’ is having to take precautions and experience harassment every time you are exposed to the public.

You would fall into the 2%.

Stop being deliberately dishonest. That isn’t what your survey says at all, nor is it actual information your survey attempted to find. It isn’t what an actual unbiased, honestly phrased survey would indicate, as has been evidenced every time such a survey has been done.

I’ve stopped playing video games online because the monthly fee isn’t worth getting more of the harassment I can get just walking down the street. I don’t go to the conferences for the same reason. That’s the usual, Lee.

But as I pointed out originally, you don’t care. I’m a woman, so nothing I have to say is at all relevant to you. You won’t take me at my word, because I am female. You assume you know my experience better than I do, because I am female. You are the problem, Lee. You are the ‘usual’. You are why women don’t speak up, and don’t go to conferences. You are what needs to change.

I reached out to you on your blog. You clearly have a lot to say, and I fear it’s going to rapidly drown out the discussion I’m having with Crommunist. I want to engage with you, but we’re going to hijack this thread. Please create a post there, with all this information, and I’ll go through it point by point until we’re both exhausted.

Sure. We can play on my blog. But do keep in mind that if your post contains lies, such as your 2% falsehood, I will move it to my spam folder. I’m not as nice as Crommunist.

© 2012, Within this mind. All rights reserved.

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About Kinda Strange

I am a student at the University of Phoenix majoring in information technology. This is where I come to babble incoherently…err…make notes, talk about things that catch my interest, share ideas, etc...
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2 Responses to A place for Lee to Mansplain

  1. Kinda StrangeNo Gravatar says:

    Oh, and also, if you continue with the Ms. Mind condescending, belittling bullshit, I will put your posts into the spam folder. But in the meantime, thank you for providing such an excellent example of exactly the kind of thing I was talking about in my original post. As I pointed out before, and will probably point out again, you are part of the problem.

  2. Kinda StrangeNo Gravatar says:

    To absolutely nobody’s surprise, once Lee was told he couldn’t lie and would be called out on his behavior, he chickened out.

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